I utterly condemn it, as I condemn the actions of the insurgents taking hostages and doing similar things to their victims.

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quote:

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Originally posted by portuga:
I mean the video?!
CBS Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed

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I didn't click the link cause weird stuff has been coming up on my PC and untill I find a way to fix the problem I'm not going to be doing too much "surfing"...but I assume you are talking about the pictures of all those nakes prisoners.

I have been watching much TV lately and haven't yet caught any words from those responsible. Has anyone else?

What I can't understand is how fucking stupid do you have to be to pose and smile for such an increminating picture? It seems like if you are going to do some sadistic shit, you would try to keep it hush-hush, right? Why hang YOURSELF? Talk about dumb.

However, all that aside, if these pictures are genuine and a few of our soldiers have taken part in these gross acts of humiliation and torture, then they deserve prison at the very least. This sort of action is not carried out in my name and they are not fit to be called British soldiers.

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Perhaps there's more to this than meets the eye.

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You may see some really shitty fixed photographs on the net but remember...they can put somebody's head on somebody elses body in a movie while they are moving around and make it look real. I'm not trying to say It's a fake! It's a fake!...but I want to hear the whole story first...and I'd also like to know why anyone would be so proud of this to let somebody photograph it. It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe they are really twisted OR maybe they were TRYING to get in trouble. Maybe those aren't Iraqis or maybe they are. Maybe they were paid to do it just for the sake of the story...I mean the shit is world wide now...If they got paid well enough...how much trouble could they get in for just making them do degrading shit? Too much to get rich from it? Maybe they didn't agree with the war either and this is everybody's way who was involved of getting what they want and need before it's all said and done.

And the thing about the faces being covered...very good point!
...cause the way I see it...to keep their faces covered could have actually been in respect to the "victims". If they were so inconsiderate concerning the dignity of these people...why did they bother to cover their faces while exposing their own.

It just don't make sense. Exactly...something is just not right about it.[/QB][/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by portuga:
...cause the way I see it...to keep their faces covered could have actually been in respect to the "victims". If they were so inconsiderate concerning the dignity of these people...why did they bother to cover their faces while exposing their own.

It just don't make sense. Exactly...something is just not right about it.

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Yes it makes Charon, besides being sick and disturbed people they dont have the "balls" to look at their "victims" in the eye.
This sick people dont represent the US or UK forces, simply there are retards everywhere.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Hmm...Yes..No doubt that could very well be the reason. I still want to know why the dumbasses posed for the pictures in the first place. There could be many possibilities explaining the pictures. The possibilities are endless, including that they did not want the victims questioned at all, but even that (if it were the case, which at this point I can't decide and am just throwing out possibilities) would prove they had intentions of these pictures being obtained by the media...perhaps for cash or in some kind of unseen protest. Who knows, maybe the pictures were taken by someone investigating reports and posing as someone who condoned the behavior and the people who's faces were shown were stupid enough to fall for it.

But still...with so much talk of this on the news...I don't see why they can't provide the other half of the story. Surely I'm not the only one who wants to hear it. Top officials are even commenting on it, not to mention Bush. I want to know what these people have to say. The only thing I have heard so far is that there is a good possibility that they won't be charged. If the story is able to catch the attention of people everywhere...how could they walk away with no charges? Some things still don't add up. If they are indeed guilty of doing what it looks like they did, they should be punished. The news is saying that one Iraqi was thrown off the back of a truck and left to die, but they're not sure.....?!

Now that these pictures have been shown in the Arab world the damage has already been done. It is now irrelevant whether these pictures turn out to be fake or not; as far as the anti-westerners within the arab world are concerned we are now guilty as charged. Therefore the overwhelming majority of our troops who are actively doing their utmost to secure the real goal here - namely the handing over of power back to the Iraqi people have just had their job made a whole lot harder.

So the people whose interests are served by making the US/UK forces look like thugs stand to gain rather a lot from creating such pictures wouldn't you think? Until we hear more from the relevant people here I think it's best not to judge just yet, but I think this is not all it seems...

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Concerning the UK 'atrocities' now being splashed worldwide...I have been studying the pictures for some time now, and I also discussed with a friend of mine who recently left the armed forces. He is totally convinced they are fake. The images are far too clear, there seems to be no evidence of physical harm on the victim, the truck is spotless; he said every UK truck he travelled in when he served in Kosovo was grubby; and the kit didn't look like UK issue, especially the hat. But the clincher for him was the rifle. He said that the one in the pictures looked like it had never seen any action and that was extremely unlikely in a battle situation, especially if they had just rounded up prisoners.

Again, I'll wait and see what the investigation finds here, but I have to say that my initial suspicions feel strengthened after this little chat.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Simon6:
Incredible !
Are there really people who hate Bush ? Is there a reason for hating him ? Poor president. How can one hate such a good and noble-hearted man. He only brings peace and true democracy to the world, in the name of Jesus Christ. As the man of God he is, he also supports Charon in his battle against evil, brown-skinned arabs, in other words terrorists.
Poor, misunderestimated Bush. He cant' help his soldiers torturing and raping Irakis. Not a good thing to do in an Islamic context, that's true, maybe some Arabs will freak out, but it's not his fault.
I am in tears.

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It's funny...the other day I was watching TV and saw a campaign ad for Kerry where he was saying he would fund troops in Iraq and give tax incentives to big business to keep jobs in the US.

Aren't those two things alot of Americans who oppose the Bush Administration's policies oppose Bush so much for? ...giving to the rich and going to war? Yes...I do believe it is. Didn't Clinton recently state that he would have acted the same as Bush concerning things related to terrorism and to Saddam? It seems like the closer we get to election day, the more Kerry realizes that he is not really going to be in the posistion to stand up and go against all the things that alot of Americans are hoping he will change. Why? Simple.

...because even though one man represents this country as the president he is not completely in charge of everything of a geopolitical nature. Yes, there are things he can go against the system to get accomplished as President but I sincerely do not believe that all of this "crusading" was the brainchild of Bush alone. If it were, he would not be president at the momment. Think about it. Remember Kennedy? Remember what happened to him and how well planned out it seemed? Perfect timing, near perfect shot from someone trained by our own government who was also connected to people who had also worked for the government in a classified sense?...making cancer cells, going undercover as a defecto deep into communist organizations? Remember how he was silenced by someone who alledgedly had connections to the mafia as well as authorities in Dallas? His story was never heard and I believe that Jack Ruby's ENTIRE story was not heard and reported by the Warren commision, only part of it to be heard by everyone. Then there were letters where it was obvious that this "thing" had driven him insane...just before he died of cancer in Prison. Do you remember what happened the following year? I'm in no way saying that Kennedy was opposed to involvement in Viet Nam but on what scale?

As a Conservative Republican it is clear that Bush has a very good understanding of things of a geopolitical nature. Does that relate him to Hitler? In my opinion, no way. The chips were going to fall somewhere and no one can tell me that they know for a fact that if Gore had won the election that he would have done things any better regardless of anything that he or anyone else says...because he was never in that posistion. In my opinion, one of the most important decision that a president is required to make is wether or not to go to war. Reffering back to Kerry and the fact that he killed people, possibly innocent as a requirment and then turned around to look at the atrocities in disgust does not make him a bad person. I do not believe he is a bad person at all. I believe he is a hero. Does that make him qualified enough to be president which as I have already said seems to be a job that requiers being abit desensatized to certain issues...such as the use of military forces to protect those who are not military...regardless of the fact that we are all human. Unfortanely...just like politics and economics, politics and humanitarianism do not always run paralell...although the goal here is to strive to get closer to those parelells. If Kerry becomes president...I think the only thing that will change is that the decisions he will make amidst his "advisors" will be made very begrudgingly and with much unseen "to do"...because he will not be able to put on the face that Bush has in front of the rest of the world and be able to say as president that he believes in the decisions he is making. So, in other words...we will hear less presidential speeches. The things happening will not stop happening but we will not hear from the mouth of the president his opinions, his intentions, his concerns...not to mention deadlines for the entire world to hear. Yes...this all could have been avoided, but does all of that weigh on the actions of one person? What about the decisions that EVERYONE ELSE makes? Are they exempt from your scrutiny because of this perspective that one man is in full control of all world issues because he wears the face of the American government with pride and outspokenness in a time where ""coincidentally"" more people are aware of political world issues than I have ever seen in my experience? Perhaps he should've chosen against going to war...then...while the US military, not to mention any other military who has a stake in this "problem" that has exsisted in the middle East for some time does things they feel neccessary in a more secretive non-publicized way...then the rest of the world can look upon us and our allies with disgust and paranoia that we are still in the imperialist age as nations who operate in covert and underhanded ways instead of nations that are trying to solve widespread problems that in my very resonable opinion, are the nations that promote laws that are more fair and equal...rather than stepping back into the extremes that we are trying to step out of.

But...Hey...Isn't that covert way of trying to handle world affairs that have not proven good at just handling themselve the exact same reason that we are hated by so many?!

Uh...Yes...I do believe so.

I think it is high time we address this, get it out in the open and do our best to change it....possibly without anyone sticking explosives up their asses and running into crowds of people but I realize this might be too much to ask right now.

Where it is true that sick minded people can come from any walk of life...How, pray tell, is ending the "REIGN OF BUSH" which he damn nearly ended himself by attempting to change some of these things, going to ...change it?

Besides...I don't think Kerry is going to like being president at all...so in a sense, voting for anyone but him would be doing him a huge favor.

...but these things are just digressions to this thread...so....

Concerning cruelty toward Iraqi prisoners, the other day I was listening to NPR and there were some reporters who had spoken to the uncle of one of the Americans involving the other incident I was talking about. It makes me wonder if these people can't or won't face other media souces because it was just coming from his uncle. I don't know.......???

Anyway....If it is true...the uncle was saying that his nephew had been writing him alot and that he told him that he, although his military training is what landed him working inside this prison, had requested information from other people on how to "soften" prisoners to make them talk and he was never instructed...therefore he did not know what he was doing was wrong because he had no kind of guidelines.

Here, I think he might be playing a tad stupid but who knows, right?

He also said that the prison had covered up a death.

So again, he is blaming the prison for different things and is not denying any of it at all so the incident must be true if this story is true which I totally agree something needs to be done about even though we are at war because they are captives.

but I still have questions. It seems that although this guy may not have had proper training or guidance...surely he would have known not to let someone take a picture with US soldiers smiling...unless of course, he was trying to expose it.

So, why then, was he one of the ones doing it?

Perhaps his intent was not to expose it...maybe he just does not give a rats ass like alot of people in this world and he is just another fucked up idiot....but SURELY...he knew better than to let someone take pictures with the people responsible in them...as if it's some kind of sick fetish to show naked pictures of Iraqi prisoners with their "captors" smiling gleefully over their prey.

...but why risk it for a few shits and giggles?

I think they should be punished and the "guidelines" need to be addressed, but I, as a person who was once arrested for DUI and peppersprayed in the eyes while inside my cell by a female gaurd am fully aware that people can get away with alot of shit. ALOT!

...but what I also want to know is what or who gave them the incentive to do this.

Some of whats been found under investigation.

Prisoners were punched, slapped and kicked. In some cases, soldiers jumped on their naked feet.
Male and female detainees were left naked for days at a time. Some were videotaped and photographed, an especially degrading experience for Muslims who regard being photographed as a sin. Some were forcibly arranged in various sexually explicit positions for the photographs.
Naked male prisoners were forced to wear women’s underwear. Others were forced to perform sexual acts upon themselves while being photographed.
One naked prisoner was forced to stand on a box with a sandbag on his head. Wires were attached to his fingers, toes and penis to simulate electric torture.
A male military police guard had sex with a female prisoner.
Taguba said he had also found several other allegations lodged by prisoners to be “credible,” including claims that soldiers broke chemical lights and poured phosphoric liquid on the prisoners, threatened them with guns, beat them with broom handles and chairs, sodomized one with a chemical light, and allowed military working dogs to bite them.

More than one prison

SODOMIZED WITH A LIGHT?!

Jesus!

I wonder how they found that out!

Was it like this? "Oh that's nothing, I sodomized one guy with a light!"

Or was it like? "Oh that's nothing, Joe sodomized one guy with a light!"

Does anybody here feel like getting arrested in Iraq?

check this out. If you click on that link up there which is the first thing on the MSN page which is probably veiwed by many many people...don't forget to click on the "slide show" over on the right.

Yes, I repeat...The slide "SHOW" over on the right.

But this does need to be taken into context. My gut feeling is that this is a tiny group of individuals committing these crimes, as compared to the huge majority of service personnel who are doing a heroic job in near impossible circumstances, now made all the more difficult by these fools who carried out despicable acts of humiliation on defenceless prisoners. We are talking about less than 1% of the armed forces in Iraq, yet it takes up 100% of the news of events in Iraq. In fact all that I have seen reported in the media here over the last month or so is bad news.

How about some balance here? In all seroiusness, if you judged the situation in Iraq on the basis of media reporting here in the UK you would think our troops are beating the hell out of every Iraqi individual they come across, and that we are losing heavily to boot.

Yes, we really have to get to the bottom of these allegations of mistreatment, but we are talking about a handful of people here, not the entire army!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Charon:
holy fucking shit...

check this out. If you click on that link up there which is the first thing on the MSN page which is probably veiwed by many many people...don't forget to click on the "slide show" over on the right.

Yes, I repeat...The slide "SHOW" over on the right.

I wonder how many Iraqis will see this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by portuga:
the issue here is not the iraqis but the arab world...they dont have internet but they are inteligent enough to see that the US-UK(exxon-bp??) troops went there to free the oil...
...no need to molest them
more interesting the oli pipes or whatever...their security is provided not by coalition troops but by mercenaries
sorry the english

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Yeah...that's another thing...about the oil.
They are going to finish the pipelines no matter what. This is going to affect alot of things/countries. It's a done deal and will probably prove a hell of alot more effecient. I'm not sure about what all happened before Saddam was removed but it seems like he wouldn't have went for such things and wanted to do his own trading his own way, which I think his stubborness was alot of his problem...but like I said, I really don't know cause its not like I ever read interveiws with him.

...but the pipelines...I imagine alot of people are practically going nuts watching Americans work on stuff in their country, but its not like if somebody else was in power it would be those INDIVIDUALS oil any more than it is right now if thats not their line of work and it probably makes alot of people very angry that contractors are coming over and doing the work...but they can't just let anyone work on stuff like that right cause stuff keeps getting blown up. I think alot of people in Iraq...especially younger people aren't taking all things like that into consideration and they get angry and do stupid shit cause they're not thinking things through. They see Americans working in Iraq and they think Americans are all taking over. Thats why alot of times when people say really negative things about all this but are not showing any desire to simply debate about their concerns, but rather say things that could envoke anger in someone who is already mad about whats happening...I usually say something....cause it fuels it. Alot of times the same sources of political awareness (left) are the same sources that give people the idea they can get away with violent revolutionary thinking...and thats very very bad. I notice in these pictures there are alot of young men..on TV around burnt up military vehicles are young men. Its very sad. And then you have people running prisons and doing things like this that no one in there right mind would do. I mean, true...the prisoners could very well be just brought in from killing soldiers but damn...raping people? Thats a bit much. Could they be so tired of it all that its turned into this?

I still question how this has wound up in the news and slowly its becoming more clear. I'm not sure about the UK soldiers incident but I think eventually it will become more apparent.

I mean what was the whole reason for invading Kuwait? Simple. Its easier to ship stuff by way of boat than it is to take it across land and through borders.

Why do people want him fired? Seriously.

Those people who did this should have known better...period. Some are blaming it on Rumsfeld for lack of funding BUT it looks to me like the soldiers had plenty of time to fuck with and molest the prisoners so I don't see how its a problem. There may be alot of people there but I've yet to see wall to wall prisoners in the pictures. Lack of training? How does lack of training tell you its ok to rape and sodomize people?
Investigation...YES, the investigation should have been more thorough and effective and the punishment should be more extreme, but if people in the chain of command are footing around with it for the sake of covering peoples asses, how is that his fault? I think, now, that media exposure was probably the only thing that was going to bring it out even though it has damaged US credibility...but when people are being mistreated they are being mistreated and thats the issue.

I was wondering how this got leaked because the US credibility IS important and it seems that it might have been done for selfish reasons, but strangely it doesn't look like they are going after the culprit as of right now.

OK...wait.

I'm watching something now with the wife of a man involved. Considering the fact that these people had to be stupid to increminate themselves this way and get their picture taken takes me back to thought that they did this on purpose because they are upset about what their being told by their higher officers up the chain of command concerning funding and the reason for being there in the first place because soldiers are still being killed. With that siad, I think its quite possible that the pentagon was late in addressing the pictures despite investigations of abuse already going on because it was always intended to get to the media first and now the soldiers who clearly knew better are blaming the system.

Now, its clear that the chain of command is to blame, not because of lack of training but because of other issues with the soldiers that are being ignored by their higher officers. I have also heard that it's a rule of thumb for a soldier not to ask for anything. I can understand their complaints but if you look back throughout history at the conditions for soldiers in other wars I sincerely think that the US has really upgraded military technology. If they read anything about history they should have understood as a soldier the possibility of going to war and being in very uncomfortable and dangerous situations. They may not have what they need but they have ciggarettes, don't they? If they don't want to be there, then they should not have enlisted. I think its disgraceful and know matter how you look at it the people who did this and those who told them to are to blame.

Now, they want Rumsfeld to step down because they want more thorough investigations into something that is so obviously wrong it shouldn't have to be explained. How could anyone have seen this coming? No doubt, when prison conditions are bad, they need to be improved but this is a blatant effort to act out of conduct and there is no excuse on an individual level. What the hell is wrong with people these days? They say if Rumsfeld steps down it will be a symbol of respect...more like an unneccessary display of defeat against traitors within our own system who joined the military, not for defending the country, but as a paycheck and now they want no part of it. I think they did get paid to protect their future after they lose their military careers...and in a way I'm glad thats its out as a warning to those who are unneccessarily killing prisoners by beating them to death if they are submissive and to those who try to hide their mistakes to avoid an investigation but for no other reasons, not for "lack of training" or lack of anything else. Its just not a good enough excuse for those reasons and I don't think funding is the issue and the secretary of deffense is not to blame for overseeing this investigation or for the crimes that are being committed by those who should know better than to rape, beat and murder prisoners, hide it, but then turn around and take pictures of it to show to the world...not to blame themselves, they who committed the crimes, but the system that sent them there.

They should be punished, punished, punished.